[fse-esf] Papandreou government will probably fall until Friday

Wed Nov 2 12:33:19 CET 2011

I don't think the two opinions are contradictory. There is just a
difference in the scope of which the issue is addressed. The Greek one (or
the one of the boarders with Southern Countries moving into Europe) and the
international level (or the North-European one).

Concerning the international level, there is always a question whether or
not IMF's policies are to be discussed and criticized by the people,
regardless the government.

Concerning Greece, what Papandreou is willing to save is not only himself,
but the entire political system. The anger of Greek people against all
representatives of the political system was more then obvious on the 28th
of October. Regardless the party or coalition, they won't be able to govern
Greece unless they manage to convince the people for another round of
sacrifices.

It is true that we never had referendums in Greece (since the fall of the
dictatorship back in 1974) and we are not used to cope with such "blur"
situations.

Whether or not the Greek government will fall, is a matter of the Greek
people. I think Attac's announcement replies on the 'north-European level',
where the debate between the majority of people is far beyond the reality
as experienced by Greeks, simplified in the question "should we help Greeks
or not?"

Nevertheless, I think it should be clear that it is not only a Greek
problem, thus this is a discussion to go on on both "publics".

p.

On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 12:17 PM, <maniazad at gmx.net> wrote:

> Dear Sissy
> it is very correct that "Papanderu`s referendum" is a political manuver to
> buy the time as you and Yanis explained. But at the decisive time that so
> many people in Greece and all over the world are coming to the street and
> occupy the squres and reject and negate the parliment and representitve
> "Democracy" could we offer the "Election of parliment" as the alternative?
> we have to stand against both and countinue our movement. the outcome of
> the election as correctly written by Yanis is "our tough opponent, the
> national unity government".
> Piran Azad
> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
> > Datum: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 11:22:19 +0200
> > Von: "sissy vovou" <svovou at otenet.gr>
> > An: "Mikael Book" <book at kaapeli.fi>, "Yannis Almpanis" <
> yannisalmpanis at hotmail.com>
> > CC: ESF <fse-esf at lists.fse-esf.org>, Social Movements <
> social-movements at lists.riseup.net>
> > Betreff: Re: [fse-esf] Papandreou government will probably fall until
> Friday
>
> > It is a pity that Attac France made such an analysis and took the
> > position,
> > that the announcement of the referendum is a democratic advancement. We
> > here
> > in Greece, the movements and the left wing parties consider this decision
> > taken by Papandreou himself without the knowledge of even his
> > parliamentary
> > group, as an effort to save his government from sinking into the troubled
> > waters of his destructive neoliberal offensive against the people of
> > Greece,
> > I mean the working class and the lower middle class which is very broad
> > and
> > sees itself sinkink into inexistence everyday, without any hope for the
> > future.
> > The movement demands the resignation of the government and the
> > proclamation
> > of elections, we have had many general strikes already and everyday
> > strikes
> > by different branches. All the political parties also demand resignation
> > of
> > the government, not only the left wing ones. Even parties that voted in
> > favour of the first Memorandum that accompanied the first agreement with
> > the
> > Troika, are today demanding elections, because the government has neither
> > the legitimisation of the people and the movements, nor of the parties.
> > The effort for common policies of the movements in Europe and for
> > alternative proposals need not and can not take advantage of such a
> > deception like the proclamation of referendum. In any case there is such
> > opposition to a referencum on such circumstances, even from within the
> > parliamentary group of PASOK, that Papandreou will not have the adequate
> > parliamentary majority, as things seem now, to proclaim it.
> > If PASOK had proclaimed a referendum in the beginning of the crisis, the
> > coming of IMF and the Troika, it would have been very different. He and
> > his
> > government preferred to sink every movement and every popular
> > demonstration
> > into tear gasses and follow a very authoritarian policy.
> > In short, we consider this statement for a referendum as a blackmail, and
> > in
> > no way a democratic advancement.
> > Sissy Vovou
> > Athens
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: fse-esf-bounces at lists.fse-esf.org
> > [mailto:fse-esf-bounces at lists.fse-esf.org]On Behalf Of Mikael Book
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 9:52 AM
> > To: Yannis Almpanis
> > Cc: ESF; Social Movements
> > Subject: Re: [fse-esf] Papandreou government will probably fall until
> > Friday
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear all,
> >
> > it is interesting to compare and to complete Yannis Almpanis' analysis
> > (http://bit.ly/sKcexb)  with Attac France's statement "Référendum grec:
> > une première avancée démocratique"  (http://bit.ly/vYTJnE). Attac
> > France
> > deserves thanks for its bold expression of political hope and fighting
> > spirit in a situation that seems to grow ever more chaotic and dangerous.
> > Almpanis, in turn, reminds us of some roots of Papandreou's politics,
> > which are easily ignored by non-Greeks, and of the more general truth
> that
> > Papandreou and his likes always put their own political survival above
> the
> > interest of the people.
> >
> > Attac France takes for granted that "NO" is going to win in the proposed
> > referendum about the EU's bailout package, and concludes that this
> victory
> > will make it necessary to put forward a concrete alternative to the
> > neoliberal model:
> >
> > "Mais elle [la vicoire du "NON"] posera concrètement la nécessité d'une
> > alternative au modèle néolibéral, qui devra commencer par la
> > dénonciation
> > des dettes illégitimes, le refus des politiques de régression sociale,
> > la
> > reconquête de la souveraineté démocratique sur notre monnaie commune,
> > l'euro. Attac mettra dans les semaines à venir toute son énergie pour
> > construire la solidarité européenne avec le peuple grec, faire triompher
> > le non à l'austérité, et poser les premiers jalons de la refondation
> > d'une
> > Europe démocratique et solidaire."
> >
> > To this I would like to wholeheartedly subscribe. For the alternative to
> > be more concrete and precise, however, it is not enough to focus narrowly
> > on the financial and social dimensions of the crisis. Our alternative
> must
> > be European, we also have to take a common stand on the European Union.
> >
> > "le peuple grec, en défendant ses droits sociaux et sa souveraineté
> > démocratique, défend les droits de tous les peuples européens -- the
> > Greek
> > people, by defending their social rights and democratic sovereignty,
> > is defending the rights of all European peoples",
> >
> > Attac France says. But we will now also have to discover and to defend
> > our common European "democratic sovereignty".
> >
> > Therefore, everybody should take a close look at this pair of political
> > words -- the so called "democratic sovereignty". Beacause, nowadays,
> these
> > words form an odd couple indeed. What is actually the sovereignty of a
> > European country, say France, say Greece? Is it the sovereignty of
> Charles
> > de Gaulle and his atomic strike force? Is it based on the "conventional"
> > weapons -- helicopters, warships, submarines, tanks etc. -- imported to
> > Greece from France, Germany and the USA?
> >
> > Be aware, please, that "soverignty" is to do with aggression and defence,
> > with war and peace.  Note that it is futile to speak about
> > "models" if you omit the military and the massive arsenals of destruction
> > from the discussion.
> >
> > Our alternative European model also must bring with it another kind of
> > "sovereignty" than that which is cherished by the present European
> > governments and the EU.
> >
> > When demanding a different "model", it is high time to put questions like
> > the conversion of the military production of the European Aeronautic
> > Defence and Space Company (EADS), for instance, squarely on the agenda.
> We
> > must take on the military-industrial and academic complex!
> >
> > After the Fukushima disaster, some European peoples have democratically
> > decided to rule out the construction of new nuclear power plants. Let us
> > hail those decisons, and let us pronounce a common "NON" to nuclear
> > energy. We need a complete revision of the EURATOM pact from 1957, which
> > has as its main purpose to "further" nuclear energy production.
> >
> > Finally, lets say "YES" to European Union, lets create a democratic
> > European state. That, dear activists of the European Social Forum, was
> > actually the whole idea of the original eurofederalists like the Italian
> > Altiero Spinelli (1907-1986), whose name still embellishes the building
> of
> > the European Parliament. See what a mess they have made of the original
> > good idea!
> >
> > Yours in peace,
> >
> > Mikael
> >
> > Mikael Böök * book at kaapeli.fi * gsm +358(0)-44 5511 324 *
> > http://www.kaapeli.fi/book/  * http://blogi.kaapeli.fi/book/ *
> > http://blog.spinellisfootsteps.info/
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 1 Nov 2011, Yannis Almpanis wrote:
> >
> >
> >   [NON-Text Body part not included]
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
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